Thursday, August 27, 2009

The Health Care Debate Is Actually Quite Sanguine

I've been hearing a lot about this and things like it - hate crimes against Democrats are actually all caused by Democrats disguising themselves as Republicans. You have the swastikas painted on a congressperson's headquarters, for example, or certain people shouting out nazi slogans at town hall meetings. All Democrats, makin' the Republicans look bad!


This is a fascinating talking point in light of the other one, that Americans are furious about health care reform. If it's all Democrats who are doing the shouting and vandalizing to make the Republicans look angry, then obviously NO ONE is furious. So let's get on with it and write a bill with the public option, shall we? Since nobody minds.

23 comments:

Publius said...

The biggest chances are that we WILL get this communist, un-American, Euroweenie-esque, dangerous expansion of government. After all, extremist left-wingers control government.

Danielk said...

that brings up another talking point... if the rest of the world has some form of government health care, does that make the rest of the world socialist? Are we allies with Stalin?

wamk said...

So using your logic, the American Legal System should also follow suit?

Loser pays?

After all, every other Country uses that gameplan..

Danielk said...

Interesting question but it doesn't actually use my logic at all.

wamk said...

Your point is that since the rest of the world is doing it, there must be something wrong with us since we aren't.

An answer to the question?

Publius said...

What makes you think I give a flying crap what other nations do? And, yes, they are all socialists. But, why does that mean we can't be allies with any of them? What logic are you employing? I feel socialism isn't good for the USA. Is it good for other nations? No. Do I care what's good for other nations? Not so much.

Danielk said...

WAMK, I'm afraid you're mistaken. My point is that your side is so intent on demonizing this bill that you're willing to demonize anything associated with it. Note Publius' embrace of the idea that the whole world is socialist. Now you're all even on record as saying that Medicare is perfect and shouldn't be changed.

Hey, it's your bridge. Burn it all you want.

Danielk said...

As to the point you raised, the bill is neither a single payer system like Britain, nor an attempt to over-regulate the industry like Germany, but a uniquely American solution to the problem. My own preference would be to convert to National Health like the British, but it's moot in this context.

Publius said...

Piker, you've been fooled into imagining it isn't the first step to single payer. It's sad, but I find it a bit amusing that your president can spend nearly 10 years telling everyone that he wants a single payer system, but you believe he now doesn't. The man is an outright liar. It's just that simple.

Danielk said...

He's still saying he wants it, but typically you guys are screaming about things that aren't in the bill.

Publius said...

... except they are. Want death panels? Just look at how Obamacare rations care and voila, death panels. Want abortion paid for by the feds? Its in there. Want free healthcare for illegals it IS in there. There isn't a thing the right is saying that is "a healthcare myth" as your president keeps saying.

Danielk said...

Bet you can't cite the specific language that guarantees those evils.

Also I bet this is the last comment from you on this thread.

wamk said...

That's the beauty of writing a somewhat less than specific document-it's open to interpretation.

For example, can you cite the specific language in the Constitution that allows abortion?

Also, you might want to let Betsy Markey (D-CO) in on your talking points. She had a little slip of the tongue, and spoke the truth here in Colorado yesterday.

Piker, you are being a tad dishonest with your claim that there won't be a body/board/group of people that make decisions on the time when medical treatment is no longer "worth" it to someone who is gravely ill, or just plain old.

You admitted that just the insurance companies that make financial decisions based on condition in the real world, the Obamacare handlers will have to make the same tough choices.

Or have you forgotten your moment of rationality and clarity, and slipped back into the Olbermann/Maddow talking points?

It doesn't make sense that we can provide 100% care until they die a "natural death" to every single person in the system under Obamacare, and not go broke in a matter of years.

Should a 95 year old man get a hip replacement?

Should a blind 74 year old get experimental surgery to try and restore sight?

At what point do we say "enough" when it comes to expensive care for the elderly, when it's on the taxpayers dime?

In a time when revenues are way down, tax bases are shrinking, the economy is dead in the water, and will be for the next year, Medicare and social Security are bankrupt, where does the money to pay for all of this come from?

Publius said...

My GOD man. Are you silly enough to BELIEVE that this bill won't cover illegals, have death panels or pay for abortions?

On illegals, sure there is language in there that says no illegals should get it. But later in the bill it refuses to provide for determining who IS ilegal! So, on one had it says no illegals, but then refuses to say who is illegal, so everyone is covered. Come on, Piker, you can do better than this!

Not only that, but there is also no legal way to stop future Congresses from adding illegals SPECIFICALLY later on. You know that no present Congress can hold a future Congress to any rule. This is why it is better to keep government out of it entirely.

On Obama's claim that abortion is not in the bill, even factcheck.org says he is not telling the whole truth.

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/abortion-which-side-is-fabricating/

And as far as death panels go, of COURSE there are. We already have government death panels in the VA where they decide who gets what. But, you see, the thing is, we have options now. When Obamacare becomes law THERE WILL BE NO OPTIONS. Americans will be dying by the millions due to government rationing and there will be no private healthcare that the average citizen can get.

But, if it satisfies your desire for government control of our lives, heck, why should we worry if old people, the sick, or the young are killed by government? It's all for the best, right? People shouldn't be allowed to decide things for themselves, after all. They are just too stupid, of course. We NEED a left-wing government to take care of us all.

Danielk said...

Open to interpretation? You guys were saying it's specifically in the bill! Which you'd be welcome to alter if you were willing to participate in lawmaking. Still you can't fool all of the people all the time AND legislate; there are only so many hours in the day.

wamk said...

Have you found the spot in the Constitution where it specifically says abortion is a "right"?

And the questions in my previous comment were not rhetorical. Care to answer those?

wamk said...

Have you found the spot in the Constitution where it specifically says abortion is a "right"?

And the questions in my previous comment were not rhetorical. Care to answer those?

Danielk said...

George W Bush taking office in 2000 isn't in the constitution either; you have the supreme court to thank in both cases.

The other questions you posed in your response are better made as statements. Go ahead! Speak your mind. If I'm reading you correctly, you're arguing that we as a society have the right to limit care to the weak. Or am I off base?

wamk said...

You never cease to amaze me.

You choose not to answer the questions, because your answers would be the same as *gasp* those crazies at the town hall meetings.

You know that some services have to be denied, some limited, or the whole system goes down the tubes.

But your blind loyalty to All Things Obama helps you to believe that somehow, some way, he'll be able to make everyone get covered by a blanket policy that covers us all 100%, no questions asked, from cradle to grave.

The reality is that the Federal Government will be forced t make the same choices Big Insurance does every day on who gets what type of care.

But keep whistling away as the folks in D.C. try to Rahm it through.

I'm sure when you are in your golden years, 3 decades in the future, the system will be a solvent as Medicare, Social Security, the USPS, etc. are today.

I've said it before, andI'll say it again.

You guys can pass it all in one day when Congress is back in sesion without a single Republican vote. If you guys had any kind of leadership, it would be law already, just like The Obama Stimulus, the Omnibus, and Cap and Trade.

But you haven't gotten this one done yet. Why is that?

Danielk said...

I don't know why you think I'm expecting a universal health plan out of congress this fall. I'd like one, but that's not what we're getting. But hey, you know what I think better than I do.

It's certainly true that if the bill passes there will be the same abuses, rationing and evils that you guys are fighting so hard to protect now; the difference will be that it will cost us less.

wamk said...

Why do I come here?

Danielk said...

Beats me. You should only go where people agree with you, so it doesn't cloud your perspective.

Johnny Appleseed said...

Because you're insane, MD. You know the definition, right?